The Problem

This has come up a lot of times, said by a large amount of people, but still I think it is something that doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should. The most pressing balance issue in all of KAG- in fact I'd go so far as to say most of the most widley debated balance problems of the day stem from this one Problem:



Buildings. Buildings, I submit, are the greatest balance problem in KAG today. Often overlooked, many are instead drawn to the flash and violence of blade and shaft, where it is simple stone that sets the stage of battle. Lets take a look at the most controversial game mechanics:

Bomb Jumping. What does bomb jumping do? What is the main complaint? Bomb jumping allows you to circumvent a certain amount of fortifications, but propelling yourself over. Bomb jumping is powerful because it's a counter to building.

Catapults. What do catapults do? For one they are strong at killing people and this ability is not to be underplayed, but I'd argue that their main strength is the quick ability to destroy tiles at range. Catapulting is powerful because it's a counter to building.

Archers. "Haha!" you naysayers might exclaim, there's no way Contrary can argue that archers counter buildings. I agree, they don't. However, they are strong directly because of buildings. Back in the day knights were essentially unable to touch archers. Knights have gotten much stronger in combat and archers much weaker. But now I confidently say that archers are a problem now, and weren't before. In the past, archers could easily avoid knights by moving way, making it so that the knights never reached them. This in of itself was a victory for the knights. If archers are running away and aren't shooting people, they are adding nothing to their team; they might as well not be in the game. Now, archers are not so good versus knights at close range, but they are still invincible, because of buildings. With modern building techniques, new tiles, the build time, and knights doing no damage to blocks, archers are still invincible as they sit in their tower. However now they don't have to move away from knights. Archers are also extremely effective versus catapults, basically the only effective counter to buildings when both teams are competent.

Because of workers and buildings, games often become shitstorms of projectiles. Buildings are why a team on low lives does and is able to camp out in their base with 30 archers. Buildings are why CTF is just plain boring on a competitive level.

For KAG to be fun when played between good teams, building needs to be nerfed. Naturally such a large change would need a tonne of testing, but my suggestions:

The frequently suggested incremental building. To play a block it requires that you hold down left click and spend time building each tiles. Instantaneous wizard block building is ridiculous and ridiculously powerful. Would stop builders from just instaplugging up hallways and would stop people from being able to spam up immense walls in several seconds. The building process would take a second or two depending on the tile and any interuption to the builder- being hit or having something move into the building space, would cancel the building.

Build time. Build time is ludicrous, infinite free resources for everyone for minutes at a time means the retarded amount of buildup we see in an average game. Ideally I'd like to see zero build time with class changing requiring the production of class change workshops like in zombie mode (I don't think that's a spoiler to anyone now). But for now I think that everyone should get resources on a timer, not how many times they visit the tent, say ten stone and ten wood every five seconds. Maybe then people would actually think about what they build rather than trying to spam as much pure mass as they can as quickly as possible.

Some might argue that limits on building would make the game less fun, but I think it would make it more fun as you would have to think about your placement more and it would be more meaningful.

tl;dr: Buildings are OP.

So thoughts? Criticisms?

 

An alternative: allow Builders to destroy blocks (a bit) quicker.

This would make a front-line builder's life much more fun imo.

edit: although I wouldn't want to see mining any quicker than it is. Hmmm... getting complicated. Can placed blocks be differentiated from those in the ground?

 

Yes please this is a awsome idea(s).

 

Or simply allow knights to destroy blocks again, even if only with a strike. That's how I feel this problem started in the first place.

 

You know, thinking about it? You're right. The issue lies in how useful buildings CAN be, and how few tools there are currently to circumvent without severe reprocussions- tunnels are great but are a two-way street, and skybridges are risky at the very least.

Maybe this will improve once powder kegs become standard?

 

Not necessarily my preferred solution. But the problem is spot on.
I'd prefer if archers couldn't move while charging - or knights slash breaking stone (or more siege weapons)

 

The major issue with knights breaking stone is how easy it could become to steamroll through a base.

 

yes make knights more powerful then they are. what about breaking stone would take like 10 slashes to break?
first time i read/hear buildings are op. Its true. more so then knights and archers combined.

 

Games use to take hoursss when knights could break stone through normal hitting.... Breaking stone through slash is a good compromise.

 

Sounds good. It'd take a while to balance, but anything to prevent the Sim City situations that crop up in most big games at the moment. But I have to ask, what's preventing a game-ending rush at the start of a round? Especially in small games where one or two good players are just going to steamroll 4-5 relatively inexperienced players on the other team.

Aside from adjusting building abilities, I'd also reduce the firepower of the catapult to make up for the slower construction times. It'd be pretty dispiriting for any builder to have their simple tower that took 3 minutes to make collapsed in 3 seconds by a catapult. I'm sure the new siege weapons would make up for any cuts to what's already there. Then again, it'd take a while to set up a siege workshop in the first place. I suppose you'd sort it all out through play-testing.

 

Very true Contrary, however I think that some of the main things that make this game so replayable are due to building. I could spend a very long time coming up with insane structures and traps. I also like reusing, adapting and improving other people's constructions as well. If what you're suggesting is to nerf the current building mechanics then I just don't know about that. Sure builders are OP in a limited lives game, I can't count the number of times I've built a structure that absolutely saved my team from destruction, but that is the thing. A Team.

Buildings are worthless on their own in most cases, sure they obstruct the other team but they usually don't kill any of them on their own. A good building is one that improves the abilities of the classes.

Knight:
Uphill advantage, giving him a place to smash down on the enemy. With shield and sword.
Bombs, they are a heck of a lot easier to throw off the top of a tower into the angry mob below than from within the mob.

Archer:
Uphill advantage, in this build [281] spammed arrows do 1 damage from above, this gives archers a huge advantage. They also are (in a good tower) extremely safe.
Longer range, when you're higher up, you can just fire farther, end of line.

Maybe with Wang castles and dungeons in the center of the map, builders will be less op than they are now, because there will be a (maybe multiple?) massive generated structure in the middle. So the game will be more about claiming one of these Wang castles than building one.


In my opinion, builders archers and knights are all the same in one respect.
Only "good" archers/builders/knights are OP.

 

I saw "Wang castles" and immediately thought of giant stone penises.

Anyway, buildings don't seem to be overpowered at all. It's just the ability for builders to spam stone blocks, etc.

For instance, myself and another builder, coupled with about 4 knights toppled a relatively large structure within the span of a few seconds.

 

I was taught to swordfight by the Black Knight himself so I am usually an archer or a builder and I think knights are OP after being killed millions of times.

I think it's often the team with the knights that are the most skilled or fortunate bombers that wins. My experience has been that knights don't seem to be having any trouble chopping or blasting through dirt under and around stone blocks to get into towers so I didn't even know that stone could be an issue because they bomb jump over it, shield climb it and dig under it. If anything, I think they should have a harder time breaking down those potato chip-like doors.

I am also kind of against the gist of this because it lessens interdependence. I support whatever makes each class on each team cooperate in order to win. I also think each class needs an equal balance of fun & work, so if it's a drag not to sword thru stone walls, so it is also a drag to endlessly chop trees for arrows or mine that stone again and again every time you get killed by a knight.

IMHO