Archer changes general

Just on the topic of Bomb Arrows and...I guess siege in general I wouldn't mind if they were made a tiny bit less effective, being there are so many ways to siege a fort with Archer and Knight it overshadows all of the Builder's ways of doing it(which is a major reason why games have annoying standoffs, so many ways to siege but hardly any of the effective ways have to do with builders...except tunneling, a thing people want to not exist...).

In other archer news, archers are now very ineffective at dealing with siege weapons, I just had a game where I unloaded 3 fire arrows and about a dozen plus normal arrows into a Ballista and could hardly dent its health, this wouldn't be so bad except for the issue that the wheels were off and I couldn't knock it off its tower no matter how many arrows hit it...grrr!

 

you do knock back grounded siege weapons with arrows, its just a really small knock back now, use bomb arrows tho because they kill all siege in 2 hits.

 

Whoa really? Must be crazy low knockback, then! Also yeah, I couldn't manage to get bomb arrows on it before the ballista destroyed us with its bomb bolts...Ah well...maybe next time!

 

I think this is a great point however, I would worry about it getting overpowered if you could spam it.
(Don't need drastic changes to the class). I've been trying to think of some way an archer could stomp safer... But only so often that it wouldn't start another imbalance. For example: An archer successfully lands a triple shot on a knight close range. As the knight is stunned and left with one heart, the archer goes for a stomp. At this point the knight performs a slash or double slash, leaving the archer die to pieces. I personally think that should be the archers kill in at least some situations.(If there's two or more knights then it's a different story.) I have 3 weak concepts for anyone reading: either a knight with one heart can be stomped(no matter the slash), Archers gain the ability to kick downwards with a stomp, Or an item that's one time use and leaves that stomp epic and safe. Someone more creative then me should finish this idea. lol

 

Well the way I see it is like this : Knights can obviously stomp too, but archers are much more agile! Therefore, they should be able to do a kick move like Mr. rymcd here suggested. This would fit with their mobility focus. EDIT : but seeing as they're pretty much finished the game I doubt any new animations are at all likely to happen. They could just just make archer fall damage stun, so you can run away from that instant slash death if the knight survives the stomp.

The main problem I have with archer to be honest is simply the fact that they are so squishy. The hardest thing of all is simply staying alive! There are so much chaos in this game that its impossible to NOT take 2 hearts damage within seconds. Be it all the bombs and arrows flying all over, I also have to contend with the rampaging, flying and kegging knights WHILE aiming at far targets. Its just IMPOSSIBLE to be at all usefull if I get killed the instant I get near danger, no matter how skilled you are! And I could go on an- oh look a bom- BOOOOM.

So yeah. Give us 3 hearts . Please. Do it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 10, 2013, Original Post Date: Dec 10, 2013 ---

Not to mention that if we buff archer damage or abilities, it makes it even HARDER to survive as archer

 

Oh aphelion's fortress server, archer have been given 3 hearts and they also have two upgrades they can get, with one of them giving a 15% arrow speed upgrade (Makes the arrows fly faster at close range and further at long range) and these two little tweaks have made the archer vastly more playable. Archer doesn't need 1.5 damage, just three hearts, imo.

 

I'll have to check it out, but I agree archer doesn't need 1.5 damage. However I think 1.5 dmg and no triple shots would be even better! I'm sure it's to late for that though lol

 

He tried implementing a different tweak today, with 2 heart archer and 1.5 dmg arrow upgrade, just to see how they perform now. We may swap back to 3 heart 1 dmg arrows later on depending on my playthroughs. If I stomp too much face then we'll revert.

 

I like the triple shot a lot as it allows you to bypass a knight shield if he's turtling. Removing this is out of the question IMO. Its also balanced/nerfed enough thanks to the random trajectory generation and the looooooong charge time.

 

Sorry for the 4 month necro but I got redirected to this thread by some Knights.

Instead of health changes or more arrow damage

>Make a fully charged Arrow pierce a shield for 0.5 damage; takes 16 seconds with all 8 shots connecting to kill the Knight.
>Prevent fully charged Arrows or Trishots firing while grappled so you can't pierce Shields while swinging from unreachable overhangs that Knights can't destroy
>Lockpicks: Open all connected Door tiles in a one tile radius to the Door you use them on, 30 Gold cost. [Kudos to the other guy who suggested it further down the thread].

And suddenly we have more Archer players, if Knights want to go up to an Archer infested wall they do indeed have an Arrow hail to deal with but it still doesn't do too much damage if they stay Shielded, and does less than all the Bombs and Slashes from an equal amount of Knights. Archers can also use Lockpicks to bypass defences to fast cap flags or Halls if you manage to kill the rest of the enemy team, leading to FUN infiltration tactics from Archers, leading to opening Stone Doors for Knight allies while preserving the structure, and the one tile radius prevents Builders making 2 layers of half-size doors. Lockpicks could be a new stalemate-breaker if your team push is successful.

Come on, at least give it a thought.

 

We all have given it a lot more thought than it deserves.




And no.

 

Actually, this is what these forums are for, giving ideas thought.
Some of these are new ideas, and if you aren't going to dispute their pros and cons or make suggestions yourself then you can be quiet.

 

Kay. I'll dispute their pros and cons.
1. I can shoot a Knight's shield 16 times pretty damn easily. If you allowed them to break shields AND deal damage, that is going to promote a whole lot of camping on top of towers. Spamming arrows from towers to kill is something that should never be promoted.
2. This fucks over any attempt to fence knights. If you say it discourages camping, that's just silly. People stand on towers to camp. Not hang from the towers. A tower will usually have a place for archer spam.
3. Completely pointless. As others have said, we have more than enough door destroyers. Bomb arrows, bombs, kegs, mines, lolboulders, drills, just a builder, and some others. This is just redundant. And archer isn't gonna walk up to a door just to temporarily disable it.



And those are not new suggestions btw, cept for maybe the second one. And there is a reason why it hasn't been suggested yet.

 

Thank you for using reasoning. I still disagree, though:
1:That's pretty much what Archers are encouraged to do now, spam arrows to kill, although they can only really do it to Knights who are being attacked by other Knights and therefore having two Knights can often be a better option for your team because Knights are more powerful. The reason Archers have arrows is to try and kill people with them. However, at the moment it is extremely difficult to do so if the Knight has his finger on the right mouse button. They already promote spamming from towers to kill, but only if you have a Knight, to "support" them by getting in sneaky kills when the enemy Knight is charging. With a shield pierce of only 0.5 health, you would actually be a threat to Knights yourself, while not being a death sentence if the Knight wants his Shield up.
2:I was more referring to overhangs that Knights cannot reach than towers. I want Archers to be able to stand on a castle wall and defend it with arrows, this is what logically an Archer should be doing. But when the map includes a floating island, Archers can grapple onto it and attack the Knight. The Knight can't destroy the floating island from below without help, he can't jump to reach you, nothing. Currently that isn't a huge problem for Knights, but let's say that shield piercing arrows are involved; you can fire them at him and he has no chance at all of reaching you. At least with a tower, he can to bomb or damage it, and he can also go right up against the face of the tower to hide. With a floating island, there is nowhere to hide for the Knight. I keep (2) and (1) together because otherwise it creates a situation where the Knight has no way of fighting back.
3:Bombs/kegs don't count because they're Knight only. Bomb arrows are expensive, and better saved for terrain destruction. Boulders are hopefully due for a nerf, and Archers don't have the time to hop around with a Boulder in front of the door because they're too squishy and also boulders are countered by a raised door. Drills prevent the Archer from using his grapple, and the point of Lockpicks is really to instantly be able to open connected doors once, for a price, leaving them open while not destroying the door. And I see people citing Archers' ability to backcap as a strength, yet one wood door tile will rape them over. A Builder supposedly isn't meant to be that far forward as he can't evade Knights.




>"Add in multiple archers, and you have knights dropping faster than deer at a hunter's convention"
But yet you're leaving out multiple Knights too, for every Archer in your hypothetical you have to include one Knight as well:
Apart from being able to dodge arrows, more Archers means more Knights, which means more targets, which means it's still effectively going to be 1v1 and all the Archers are each going to take 16 seconds to kill their equivalent Knight. The damage will be distributed across the Knights because these Archers aren't a hivemind who will all aim for one player-- and say they are singling out a single player, if he's good at dodging Arrows then that actually improves the situation for all his allies as they advance on the wall. You can always retreat backwards from an Arrow volley, go hard up against the wall, jump, or duck.
>"If you built properly, those Knights shouldn't be able to do anything"
So you're assuming that the Knights or Knight don't/doesn't have Bombs? Because if he has Bombs, which he certainly will if the enemy has a Stone Wall, then he's going to invade the flag room/hall and make a capture. If he has no Bombs, yes he was never going to do anything anyway. If the defences are wooden, he's going to crumble them, over a period of time, and once again take the Hall or Flag in question. And if you're talking all Stone, super-tier architecture, then that Knight is still going to put a serious dent in it with Bombs.

I would like to invite some more people with thoughts to give their opinion :)

 

Aight, here are some thoughts from the other thread to bring here.

First off, why do you keep targeting the way people post? You claim to be all about the "ideas," when in actuality your best method of defense is pointing out little imperfections in others' posts. You claim that (Disclaimer: not actual quotes) "the suggestions thread is for people to share ideas!" and "that's what the forums are for!" yet you constantly tell people that they shouldn't be posting and that their post is stupid/useless. Mmmm, maybe you're compensating for a lack of backup/reasoning behind your ideas?

Second, why is everyone so worked up about these roles? In my view every class (possibly excluding knight) can be played as offense, defense or support. Archer can camp tower and hope to shoot knights with their shields down, rush with their knights and provide cover fire, or get some bomb arrows and steal a flag with their grapple. Builder can minecraft all day, rush w/ knights and make small towers and outposts, or even ladder over towers or bust buildings. Knights can hang back at base and wait for enemies, rush with team and chuck some bombs, or bombjump over the enemy wall and rek their base. None of the classes have set-in-stone things to do, and you can play them however you want/ is best for the team.

 

>your best method of defense is pointing out little imperfections in others' posts
I break down the posts into lots of little components so I can try and get across why I think they're wrong or right.

> You claim that (Disclaimer: not actual quotes) "the suggestions thread is for people to share ideas!" and "that's what the forums are for!" yet you constantly tell people that they shouldn't be posting and that their post is stupid/useless
Because when people are simply insulting me or, ironically, saying that the ideas have already been suggested after somebody before them said that, or posting about my Steam account, or not reading any of the thread before posting in it, then they are not discussing the ideas and are, in fact, irrelevant, and not doing what the suggestions threads are for.

>Archer can camp tower and hope to shoot knights with their shields down
A fairly forlorn hope if they see the Archer, and by the time the first Arrow is shot off it alerts the Knight; seeing that Knights have 4 HP and the biggest burst Archers can do is 3 HP without special arrows, once the Arrows are launched that Shield will go right up, because it goes up without any delay except that of the player.

>rush with their knights and provide cover fire, or get some bomb arrows and steal a flag with their grapple
That's exactly the kind of play the Archer is being shoehorned into: Cannot Do Anything Without Knights. Seeing as your suggestion of "get some bomb arrows and steal a flag with their grapple" requires Gold, that means they require kills, which apparently they aren't allowed to get without Knights, barring lucky kills. So that essentially sticks them to one defined playstyle right there.

>Builder can minecraft all day, rush w/ knights and make small towers and outposts, or even ladder over towers or bust buildings
Builders are in a great place at the moment because they have pros and they have cons, they can support team-mates, they have simple to learn but hard to master gameplay, and a great Builder can carry an entire team to victory, as can a great Knight. Archer can't do this without a huge amount of effort and luck.

>None of the classes have set-in-stone things to do, and you can play them however you want/ is best for the team
I'd like to believe that, but without any form of reliable damage output, Archer either has to riskily do grapplestomps xX360nograppleXx style, or is forced to always "support" Knights by just spamming arrows at an already distracted target, in order to be able to get Gold to do anything. Therefore, that first part is always necessary in order to be useful at all, which sets the Archer in stone as the Has To Have Knights class.

 

Bobotype, your main concerns seem to revolve around the fact that Archers cannot act effectively alone, which makes them less fun to play.

Well, sorry, but as many of the gents around here have been telling you, the Archer is a support class. They have the ability to attack from a range at the cost of being less powerful against units... but that doesn't make them less awesome. I mean, come on - can Knights help their fellow teammates into the enemy base by instantaneously blowing apart the wall from a range? Or clamber over defenses and ignite a bunch of enemy workshops? Or put so much fear of being struck by an arrow into the hearts of the enemy Knights that they're afraid to play offensively, giving your team the upper hand?

I realize something. It's not that all of your ideas are awful, it's just that you don't like the way the Archer plays right now, but everyone else does. I can understand that you're upset that your favorite class changed from Classic and became something you didn't like, but the harsh truth is the devs aren't going to nerf Knights or change Archers in KAG Beta because a small majority of the community likes it better another way.

Archers aren't about KD anymore. They're not even about bringing down enemy units anymore. They're about constantly peppering the enemy with a steady flow of extra damage from a safe distance, and quickly bringing down any other tool that the opponents might use against your team.

If you really hate how they play nowadays, I'm sorry, but you'll either have to get used to it or start specializing in Knight or something.

If it's any consolation, I promise you, you can still perform really well and feel really awesome playing Archer. I just had a match today where I got eight kills before dying once AND capped a flag in the midst of a heated battle by shooting a bomb arrow into a weak point in the enemy base and nabbing the flag before their Knights could react to stop me. Sure, I had support from Knights and other Archers, but a lot of that was all me and my own skill.

Trumbles even said "nice work" to me! *Fangirl scream*

 

>your main concerns seem to revolve around the fact that Archers cannot act effectively alone, which makes them less fun to play.
Thank you, you get me

> the Archer is a support class
Nah, that just isn't right-- Archer were given Arrows to do damage, not to make Knight remember to press RMB when not Slashing. The Archer is listed as the Ranged class on the [albeit outdated] wiki. Support stuff is healing or stunning or replenishing ammo, and the only case there that the Archer has is the Legolas Shot, and the Water Arrow-something which the Knight incidentally has to use as well [Water Bomb]. Does that make the Knight a support? I wouldn't say so. IMO, and feel free to disagree, the Builder is the Support--Situational heavy weaponry, ability to supply team-mates with ammunition and healing, team transports, trampolines etc.

>I mean, come on - can Knights help their fellow teammates into the enemy base by instantaneously blowing apart the wall from a range?
The Knight can cook off a Bomb and throw it, and the Bomb=Bomb Arrow in power; the Bomb Arrow isn't any more "instantaneous" than a Bomb. The Knight can also just get right up close with his Bomb for better accuracy, while Shielded. The Knight also has a much better explosive option, the Keg. Finally Bomb Arrows need a considerable amount of Gold from kills, which apparently the Archer isn't meant to be getting if they're "support".

>Or clamber over defenses and ignite a bunch of enemy workshops?
Knights have Bomb jumping, wallelevatoring, or just exploding the wall, while Builder can just break the defences and get those out of the way for good. The Archer brings nothing new to the table there if the Builders bother to place an overhang and a wall around their shops [which they do]. If those workshops have even a simple stone wall, the Archer is useless unless he's carrying both Bomb and Fire arrows at once, which needs Gold, from kills, which a "support" does not have in large supply.

>Or put so much fear of being struck by an arrow into the hearts of the enemy Knights that they're afraid to play offensively
That's what you COULD do if you could get through their Shield at all. A Knight can even tank your biggest burst of damage, the Trishot/Legolas Shot, if he wants, and still survive. He can also shield against all your other special kit except Water Arrows. You don't put fear into any Hearts, you just "inspire" them to press RMB.

>It's not that all of your ideas are awful, it's just that you don't like the way the Archer plays right now, but everyone else does
While saying my ideas aren't awful sarcastically to make them look bad is cute, the real fact of the matter is that they couldn't hurt at all. Archers being an actual threat would see more play of the class, as well as make them more fun. Knights would still be extremely versatile and powerful but they would just have a contender on the field.

And so you're going to say "everyone else likes the Archer's play right now"? Check the vote at the top of the thread. There are definitely people that would disagree with you, as the vote shows. 56% of the people there would change the Archer's gameplay. I am definitely not alone here.

> but the harsh truth is the devs aren't going to nerf Knights or change Archers in KAG Beta because a small majority of the community likes it better another way
The devs have changed the Archer recently, with arrow slashing, and could again. 0.5 damage through Shields isn't a huge change either, but would definitely make the Archer more playable, something I'm sure they wouldn't hate.

>They're about constantly peppering the enemy with a steady flow of extra damage from a safe distance
You know what I get as a reason from people for not having the Archer be able to damage through Shields? "Oh um he'll just camp on walls all day and shoot at people". What happens now? Exactly that. It's unrewarding, too.

>and quickly bringing down any other tool that the opponents might use against your team
Like what? Like Bombs? Nope, you can Shield while cooking them, Archers can't do shit there. Kegs? You can Shield with those [another example of a one man Knight army]. Vehicles? Arrows take years to break them, also, cata bunkers. Boulders? Shieldable. You can't Shield while carrying a Drill, but you can drill through an Archer's defences faster than they can take out 4 Hearts. Archers can't "quickly bring down" tools the enemies use at all.

>I just had a match today where I got eight kills before dying once AND capped a flag in the midst of a heated battle
Anecdotal evidence bro. The fact remains a skilled Archer can't #SOLORECK like a skilled Knight/Builder can.

> start specializing in Knight or something
And this the really big problem here. "Just play Knight". That's just wrong. We have 3 classes, we should be able to be useful and have fun with all of them.

Anyway, the Archer has unrewarding gameplay atm, and I think either actually being able to defend defences, and-or having more infiltration options, will make him a much better and fun class. Give him a chance guise.
SORRY FOR POST SIZE BUT IT'S DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN WITHOUT WORDS